Now she goes by V, because she rejects her father’s last name and identity. Eve Ensler is THE FEMINIST. The woman and author and activist who, with The Vagina Monologues, gave women around the world words of identity and revolt. And with V-Day, 25 years ago, and the One Billion Rising platform, the tools to fight violence. In this conversation with Sabrina Provenzani, she touches on the global regression of women’s rights, the roots of misogyny, the urgent struggle against patriarchy, and her dream of a world where all lives weigh the same.
You have inspired millions of women worldwide, founded V-Day, given women the words to see their oppression but also, with One Billion Rising, the strength and tools to rise. But have you managed to bridge the divide? has your message been heard by both men and women?
That’s a very good question. There are some men absolutely, who have heard it, have taken it in, have been changed by it, but the majority of men, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I think even if they’ve heard it, they haven’t responded in kind. They haven’t acted out of what they’ve learned, because patriarchy is so bloody powerful. It keeps men in a frame. It keeps them in a story. It keeps them from actually being brave enough to step out of what my friend Tony Porter calls the “man box”. It’s a box. And I think sometimes, to be perfectly honest with you, it’s 25 years later, I could just scream bloody murder. I could scream bloody murder. Just how long we have worked. And look, I’m just a part of this chain of women. I was listening last night. I was in Florence, and I was listening, the first magistrate of Italy, the first woman, talking about what that was like. You know, have things really changed that much? I don’t know. I think we’re still encased in patriarchy. We’re still in this paradigm. We’re still living with their rules and their ways and their violence and their oppression, all of us. And until we kind of dismantle this, until we kind of say, we refuse this paradigm any longer, I don’t know how much change there can really be. We can move some laws and we can get ourselves to talk about things we weren’t able to talk about before. But there’ll always be pushback, there’ll always be the wave coming back at us because patriarchy is still there. So the real question is, how do we dismantle this?
What is left of the #MeToo movement?
As far as I’m concerned, it’s part of an ongoing story. There was Rosa Parks, one of the first activists against violence, who stood up against the rape of white men just before sitting on that bus. Then the ’70s, the ’80s, and also me with V Day, and finally #MeToo. But what has not happened after #MeToo Is apologies. It’s reckoning it’s men changing, is men doing self-evaluation and looking at themselves and asking themselves questions, why did I do what I did? What went into making me as a man, that made me capable of raping my girlfriend or battering my wife or sexually harassing somebody on my job? That work has not been done. And until that work is done, things are not going to change. Men are just on pause, as far as I’m concerned. They are just stuck.
What is misogyny, at its core? Is it intrinsic to males or rather a social construct? Nature or nurture?
I’m not going to believe it’s nature because then that will be very scary. If it’s just testosterone driven hateful women, then we just need to I don’t know what we need to do, but it’s not good news. Yeah. I just don’t believe men are born hating women. I don’t believe men are born wanting to hurt women. I think they learn it and I think they learn it in everything they see and in everything they do. They see from the time they are a boy how girls get treated and how they get treated, how much they get for something. And at the same time, I think men are very jealous of women. Men are jealous of what women can do, jealous of what women can do with their bodies, and jealous of what just we’re amazing. Women are amazing. We have incredible capacities. We have this ability to be creative and visionary and move with our bodies, and we’re sexual and we’re alive and we’re fun and we’re connected and we have relationships and all these things that they have essentially been exempted from the world they’ve been thrown out of. And part of it is inviting men back into the world of women, inviting men back into the world of feeling and connection and having doubts and being able to cry and not know what you’re doing. And just to be lost like the rest of us, because we’re all lost here. And to pretend you’re not lost is just arrogant and stupid. We’re all lost. We don’t know what we’re doing here. What are we doing here? I have no idea. No idea. But we need to all get on the same page, and we need to have some people stop pretending they know what they’re doing.
Why does no one in power seem to care about Iranian or Afghan women, despite all the rhetorical statements?
Can I tell you the truth? we are in a fundamentally racist world. I worked in Afghanistan. I worked in the Congo. In Bosnia. The only one of all those places people cared about was Bosnia, where the women were white. Ukraine. People care. The women are white. If we look at the struggle in Palestine, it’s the same story. People kept under siege, occupied for how many years? No one even noticed. Finally, people are noticing. Finally, people are noticing. But if we look at the women in Afghanistan, Afghanistan is currently the most oppressed place for women in the world, along with Iran. And Afghanistan is in a worse situation because the women are incredibly poor. Incredibly poor. They can’t leave the house, can’t work, can’t earn a living. They live in such extreme poverty, such extreme oppression. But it’s the West that created that situation. It’s not just ignoring it; it created it. And it abandoned those women after they entered a new story, awareness, power, equality. It just left them there. People don’t really care if the victims aren’t white. Let’s talk about the Congo. There are 7 million Congolese being displaced just this month. Does anyone know? Does anyone care about Sudan? Does anyone care about Yemen?
Why is Israel/Palestine so important and more important than others?
One reason it’s important is that it’s a bit of the world’s wound. The center of History. But I would also argue that if you’re in the Congo or Sudan now, or if you’re in Afghanistan now, you don’t understand how people are so passionate about that conflict. And that doesn’t mean I don’t suffer from it. I have hardly slept since October 7. I am devastated by the massacres of October 7 and the terrible bombings in Gaza. It’s beyond my mental capacity to understand how we can live in a world that doesn’t call for a truce in the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, mothers, but also men. Let’s not forget the men dying there. We live in a totally unjust world, a racist world. We live in a world where some lives matter and others don’t, where some rules apply to some people and don’t apply to others. Some escape war crimes, and others don’t. Some are held accountable, others are ignired because they have power, because they call the shots. And that’s what needs to change. And I think the uprisings around Palestine are really profound right now because I think the world is saying is responding to that global unfairness.
Do you agree that women’s rights are also regressing in Western countries like the United States?
Oh, absolutely.
But why?
Because we made incredible progress. There was real change for a while, but look at what happened with George Floyd. George Floyd was one of the most horrible things we’ve ever seen, but also nothing new: it’s what happened to people of color since slavery, when the police served the masters. But Floyd’s murder, like Giulia’s, catalyzed this movement, which became huge. What has happened since then? There has been a strong counteroffensive against critical race theory, against anti-racism because when there is a push, there is always a pushback. When there is expansion, there is contraction. I think we were in a big expansion, and I think white men, especially older white men, got scared thinking they would lose their power, lose their territory, lose everything. And there was a big contraction, which we are experiencing now. But this doesn’t mean they haven’t planned it for years because, regarding abortion rights, they have systematically tried to get what they want. And by the way, religion hasn’t disappeared. Religion is everywhere, and it’s so patriarchal, and we know it aims to undermine women’s rights. Every time there’s fundamentalist religion, you can be sure women’s rights are undermined. Again, I think it happens when we take our foot off the accelerator. And there’s another thing: ”Never take a right for granted.” Never. They are not. Until patriarchy is over, they are here. We can get those rights, but they are precarious because we are still in a system that corrodes them. And every time, every time you push forward, expect a reaction, a counter-reaction, and you have to be prepared. And we are not prepared because it’s really tiring for those of us who have been doing this work for many years. It’s exhausting. Sometimes you feel like you’re in Groundhog Day, having to start over and over again.
But talking about Evangelicals in the United States, many of them are women and endorse, push, and spread this idea. How does it work? Why is patriarchy embraced by so many women?
Well, why do we assume that women are exempt? It’s like my mother. My mother grew up with certain beliefs and values that were instilled in her, and she spent most of her life acting according to those dictates.
But between you and your mother, feminism happened.
Of course. And because of me, and because I worked on her constantly, and because she saw me acting in the world, she had the courage to change. But my father was dead when it happened. He wasn’t alive. It was only after the threat of my father and the fear of my father disappeared that my mother could change. And I think: what happens when you’re in a marriage like my mother’s, where you are dependent on a man for money, have three children, and nowhere to go? How do you rise and feel your independence and autonomy when you don’t have a job, when you don’t have economic resources? It’s very difficult. I try not to blame these women because I think there will be a place for all of them when their time comes. And I think we also need to reach out to them, maybe asking them if this is what they want for their daughters. I wrote a piece that is in the book, it’s called “Dear White Women,” which really says, I understand why you do what you do because I had that mother.
Italy is shocked by yet another femicide, that of 22-year-old engineer student Giulia Cecchettin, killed by her former boyfriend. Giulia’s sister, Elena, in a public letter, urged men to share responsibility in preventing femicides. This is what she wrote: “My sister’s killer is often labeled as a monster, but he is not a monster. A monster is an exception, someone outside of society, a person for whom society does not need to take responsibility. And yet, responsibility exists. The monsters are not sick; they are healthy sons of patriarchy, of the culture of rape. The culture of rape legitimizes any behavior that harms the image of women, starting from things that are sometimes not even given importance but are indeed important, such as control, possessiveness, catcalling. Each and every man benefits from this culture. It is often said, it’s “not all men”. It’s not all men, but it’s always men. No man is good if he does nothing to dismantle the society that privileges them so much. It is the responsibility of men in this patriarchal society, given their privilege and power, to educate and call out friends and colleagues as soon as they sense the slightest hint of sexist violence. Tell that to the friend who controls his girlfriend, tell that to the colleague who catcalls passersby, make yourselves hostile to such behaviours accepted by society, which are nothing but the prelude to femicide. Femicide is a State murder because the State does not protect us, because it does not shield us. Femicide is not a crime of passion; it is a crime of power. Comprehensive sexual and emotional education is needed; it is necessary to teach that love is not possession. Violence prevention centers need funding, and the opportunity to seek help must be provided to those in need. For Giulia, do not observe a minute of silence. Burn everything to the ground.”
V nods as reads the letter.
What an intelligent woman… she’s absolutely right when she says that these are not monsters. These are not monsters, these are men, behaving just like men. And portraying them as extreme cases when one in three women in the world is beaten and raped… the majority of men on the planet are the ones doing harm. And to make them seem like extreme cases when one out of three women on the planet will beaten and raped that’s most of the men on the planet who are doing something bad. And if they’re not doing something bad, they witnessed it or knew about it and didn’t do something… we must devote ourselves now to the dismantling of the patriarchal system in all its forms, like, we need almost like a global plan that’s going to get implemented in every single country, which would be how do we bring up boys? How do mothers bring up boys? How do we teach boys what it means to be a man? Step by step by step by step? That we can no longer accept that patriarchy is the basis of our existence. That we have to look at cooperation, we have to look at end of hierarchy, we have to look at the end of competition, we have to refuse dominance as a principle in our lives. Look, I would love to be on the board of people who are organizing this new world, but unless we look at it systemically and paradigmically, we are just going to be here forever getting little pieces and little pieces with pushback. I don’t know if we have a future if men don’t change.
As we speak, women and many men in Italy are marching against gender violence. But this is not the first time we’ve said ‘enough.’ How do we keep the momentum high?
We must stand firm, stay vigilant. I am very proud of Italy because One Billion Rising is so widespread here. And I don’t think without all this mobilization, Elena would have said what she said. I know how exhausting this fight is; sometimes, I am disheartened and exhausted. But my life is this beautiful, wonderful, impossible struggle to change human consciousness and end racist and patriarchal capitalism.
How do you reconcile the question of motherhood with women’s liberation and the pursuit of equality?
I don’t know if I have the answer to that question because I’ve never been able to resolve it within myself, even though I adopted a child [her husband’s son]. I was terrified of having children because I felt they would impede my autonomy and freedom. And it seemed very stifling to me. I knew I wanted to write, I was an activist, I knew I wanted to travel, and I knew I couldn’t have a child and be responsible for it. And I didn’t feel a desire for children; they just didn’t speak to me, honestly. I think being a mother is the most generous and glorious thing one can do for a human being, but I couldn’t do it. Until we truly start living in communities, until we start moving away from this nuclear family structure that is so harmful to women and so alienating… really, it takes a village to raise a child. It’s better for children to be raised by many different people because then they are not so controlled. And when you decide to be a mother, you have to ask yourself tough questions: is this really your dream? I have friends who knew from the age of ten that they wanted a child. I never had any of those impulses. we also saw what happened during COVID how quickly women lost their professional status and got pushed back immediately. It happened within weeks.
You reneged your last name, the paternal lineage imposed on women worldwide. You had personal reasons for doing so that you explained in “The Apology.” But obviously, since the personal is political, your choice is the ultimate middle finger to patriarchy. What have you understood about patriarchy and its pervasiveness not only in societies and politics but also in the collective mind?
Well, I love the question, and I love not having a patriarchal name. It’s the best thing that ever happened. Yeah. Okay. Because I don’t feel like I’m in that lineage anymore. I don’t know what lineage I’m in, but whatever it is, it’s becoming. It’s in evolution, which is very exciting. I think that for so long, having my father’s name and also having the name he gave me, I always felt, like, really awkward. I think at the end of The Apology, when that last line, Old man be gone was the last line of the book, I don’t know who wrote it, my father or I, but I literally looked out and it was like my father just disappeared into the ethers and he was gone. And I had no more rancor, I had no more bitterness, no more rage. But I didn’t have any feelings either. It was just over. And I thought, I don’t really want his name. He wasn’t for me. He didn’t live his life supporting me. He didn’t live his life believing in me. He didn’t give me energy that was sustaining. And why would I carry his name? Names are so profound. And I thought to myself, well, I love everything about these vaginas vulvas. And look at these. Look at them. They’re just amazing. They’re these openings, these vulnerable invitations. Right? Invitations, right. And I have to tell you, since I’ve changed my name, I feel light. I feel light. I feel like I’m not held down by someone else’s story about who I’m supposed to be and where I’m supposed to go and who. You broke the chain. I broke the chain. I broke the chain.
Reckoning is also an intense and raw biography. What would you like your legacy to be?
I want women to be free. Free from guilt related to their sexuality, free from anguish, free from violence, free from the fear of fully living their sexuality, free from never questioning the divine and mystical sexual energy pulsing through them in the universe. And I truly believe it’s possible to get there.
But what would a world led by women be like?
I don’t believe there would be hierarchies. I think we would all be connected and know that you are me and I am you, and you are me. And how could we harm each other? We wouldn’t have insiders and outsiders. We wouldn’t live on defined tracks. We would live knowing that there’s no way any of us could ever support bombs falling on Hiroshima, on children and humans sleeping at night. We would never allow it because we would know that it’s us, that there’s no separation. And the reason we don’t know it’s us is because we’ve been divided and divided and divided and put in silos and separated by patriarchy and capitalism and racism… so our task as women, as activists, as feminists, and for men who want to follow us, is to break down the walls, break down the separations, so that we can live knowing that anyone we touch or meet is a part of us. They are a part of us. That’s the world I want to live in.
ITALIAN VERSION – Eve Ensler: “Lotta ancora lunga: rompiamo assieme la gabbia maschile”